Transcript

Kerrien Suarez (00:07):

Welcome, Maggie, to Beyond DEI. It’s a pleasure to have you as a guest today, and I’m really excited to talk about your work and racialequitytools.org and our partnership and how RET is now, a part of Equity In The Center.

Kerrien Suarez (00:24):

And just your thoughts on operationalizing race equity, how tools and resources fit in, and why you thought EIC would be a good place for RET to have a home moving forward.

Kerrien Suarez (00:36):

So, to start, it would be helpful if you could share a bit about yourself, your background and experience (all the decades of it) in race equity work, and anything else you might like to share with our listeners.

Maggie Potapchuk (00:50):

Okay. Well, it’s great to be on this call with you, Kay. And I’m really excited just to have the conversation and just gap for a while.

Kerrien Suarez (00:58):

Me too.

Maggie Potapchuk (01:00):

So, I guess I want to start on at, I’m currently living on the unceded territory of the Susquehanna, which is in York Township, Pennsylvania. But I grew up on the unceded territory of Erie, and Kaskaskia, and Mississauga which is now, referred to Cleveland, Ohio, and South [1:22]<inaudible> specifically. It’s one of those suburbs.

Maggie Potapchuk (01:23):

And I’d say that my parents and my maternal grandma were the first who sort of shared the messages of fairness and justice.

Maggie Potapchuk (01:36):

But as a white girl growing up in a white suburb that moved from the west side of Cleveland, which was the more diverse area to the white suburb for better education, I was constantly trying to deal with some of the covert messages of who is worthy or what is good. And that was all racialized. So, just starting to question and address.

Maggie Potapchuk (02:00):

So, just so folks have a little bit of context in terms of my background I got super excited about a graduate program at the School of Ed at UMass Amherst that was focused on social justice education and organizational development.

Maggie Potapchuk (02:18):

And it had this great faculty folks, Bailey Jackson and Rita Hardiman, who did some of the racial identity development, and Maurianne Adams, who did the social justice education.

Maggie Potapchuk (02:28):

And I was putting myself through graduate school, working full-time as a residence director. Of a 22-floor tower building that I was working on, it was mostly freshmen and sophomore folks who identified as male. So, it was a crazy time for me.

Maggie Potapchuk (02:45):

And in 1986, there was a lot of campus racial violence and tension that was happening across the country. And UBS was not immune, even though out of all the colleges and universities, it probably had a little bit more infrastructure in terms of programs.

Maggie Potapchuk (03:03):

And after the last game of the World Series, a gang of white football players surrounded, attacked a black man who lived in my building. And there was a series of other violent attacks that happened that evening. And so, you can imagine from a university scale how they were going to address it.

Maggie Potapchuk (03:24):

And that really was my point of no return. It was me making sure that my role and responsibility was to work for racial justice. And that whole process was a way to educate me in a whole new way about more the system and the culture piece that I wasn’t aware of earlier on.

Maggie Potapchuk (03:47):

And I met a woman when I was in St. Louis working at Saint Louis Effort for AIDS, Mary Lieber, who had started this dismantling racism program at NCCJ. It was the National Conference of Community of Justice.

Maggie Potapchuk (04:02):

And for those old folks, it used to be the National Conference for Christians and Jews. And so, she asked me to continue her work when she moved away.

Maggie Potapchuk (04:10):

And in the late ’90s, a group of us designed and facilitated a residential dismantling racism institute. And we were real strategic in trying to identify folks in different key sectors and different positions to go through it and then make a two year commitment of working in the community.

Maggie Potapchuk (04:30):

And then we started building our base through community workshops and dialogue groups, and then we launched Community Saint Louis with the emphasis on unity. And we brought representatives from across the sector.

Maggie Potapchuk (04:44):

And we were part of the first wave of comprehensive community initiatives focused on racial equity following the work of Project Change. And I encourage folks to check out what Project Change accomplished in the ’90s, there’s some information about it on Racial Equity Tools.

Maggie Potapchuk (05:03):

And then just finally, I moved to Maryland, worked at the Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies, and that’s one of the oldest black think tanks in the country.

Maggie Potapchuk (05:14):

And Mike Wenger, who was at the President Clinton’s Initiative on Race, he started NABRE, Network of Alliances Bridging Race and Ethnicity. And we had 180 race relations and racial justice organizations. And we supported them with programs and tech.

Maggie Potapchuk (05:32):

And you have to imagine online tech in 2001 was a lot different than it is now-

Kerrien Suarez (05:38):

Was it really online back in 2001?

Maggie Potapchuk (05:40):

It was an experiment. And then I started consulting in 2004. So, focusing on operationalizing racial justice, working with white folks. And I’ve written several pieces and developed some tools, so probably longer than you wanted, but that was a little background.

Kerrien Suarez (05:58):

No, that was really helpful to hear, Maggie, because there are different aspects of your story that I’ve heard, but I’ve not heard them threaded together in that way, which sort of tells the story of your evolution as an activist and an organizer.

Kerrien Suarez (06:11):

And in our conversations with our deepen or deep equity practitioners network colleagues, you are always super intentional about leading with movement. Like what is our strategy for movement and organizing?

Kerrien Suarez (06:25):

And so, I could hear that and how you were telling the story of your increasing awareness around racial justice and the broader system and how it all fits together. So, I really enjoyed hearing that.

Maggie Potapchuk (06:37):

And just one quick thing, I think it’s one thing to talk about ancestry to understand our conditioning in terms of doing that. But what I wanted to share that information for, it’s also, important to understand our spiritual, and our cultural, and political lineage.

Maggie Potapchuk (06:54):

Because those were the supports that were necessary for me to challenge my thinking and growth as a white person working for racial justice. And I want to just, in some ways, hold up the people of the shoulders that I stand on.

Kerrien Suarez (07:08):

Yeah, no, that’s really important. And as you were telling the story and naming people’s names, that really resonated with me because we don’t always do that when we’re telling the stories of like how we learned or from whom we learned.

Kerrien Suarez (07:20):

And you start it with your mother and your aunt. And I feel like each of us has that thread that we can pull.

Kerrien Suarez (07:25):

And for those of us that work in racial justice or racial equity, generally, if you ask people how they got here, there is a family member or a couple of family members who had an influence on them during childhood that sort of pulls a direct line to how they ended up doing what they do today.

Kerrien Suarez (07:44):

So, I enjoyed hearing who that was for you. We each have that person. And then like you’re saying, all the folks along the way on whose shoulders you stand. So, I appreciate the story.

Kerrien Suarez (07:55):

And you’re naming how this all fits together for you as a white person working for racial justice and developing an awareness of how you fit into the broader system.

Kerrien Suarez (08:04):

I’m also really amused that you were in a building of mostly undergraduate. I mean, I’m sure you got a lot of stories. So, we can come back to that. We can come to that later.

Maggie Potapchuk (08:17):

I do. We won’t talk about the cow. That’ll be another podcast.

Kerrien Suarez (08:20):

Oh, my goodness. Yes, I’m getting animal house vibes from that whole phase of your life. But thank you for sharing. And it was so sad to hear about the young man who was attacked following the football game.

Kerrien Suarez (08:35):

And what it made me think of is how often those melees happen after large sporting events. But when they involve white folks, they’re not called riots even though they involve violence and destruction of property.

Kerrien Suarez (08:49):

So, I’m sorry that he had that experience and that you had to be part of managing the trauma of what unfolded after that.

Kerrien Suarez (08:59):

Let’s talk a little bit about how racialequitytools.org came to be, or Racial Equity Tools came to be. At the end of your introduction, you referenced in passing like a couple of articles and some resources that you developed which is a very large understatement. You’re so humble.

Kerrien Suarez (09:23):

You more than anyone I’ve ever encountered in this space have written and shared more resources than I could even count. And Racial Equity Tools is the largest online library of racial equity and justice tools and resources.

Kerrien Suarez (09:40):

So, tell us a little bit about how it came to be, and as you said, you also balanced that work with your own practice and writing. And I know we’ll come back to that too, but RET, how did it get started?

Maggie Potapchuk (09:52):

Yeah. So, you have to make one comment about family on this. So, my dad who used just go to the libraries all the time and get books and go to those dollar bag sales, we were always joked around that our attic would fall in because we had so many books. So, you know where I got my love of resources.

Kerrien Suarez (10:12):

Ah, okay, that does make sense. And Andrew and I have always marveled at your capacity to do research while at the same time doing organizing and then Racial Equity Tools.

Kerrien Suarez (10:23):

But that, okay, so you grew up gathering, organizing lots of data and you had a library in your attic, which makes sense because you curate the largest online library of Racial Equity Tools. So, we owe that to your dad.

Maggie Potapchuk (10:38):

Yes. So, I met Sally Leiderman. We were both doing technical assistance at the Casey Foundation, that making connections, place-based initiative that was happening. And we felt there was a need for clearinghouse of resources.

Maggie Potapchuk (10:52):

And actually, Racial Equity Tools started as evaluation tools for racial equity back in 2005. And you know that evaluation and racial equity weren’t in a lot of sentences together.

Maggie Potapchuk (11:06):

So, we worked really hard in identifying the resources and also, we created a lot of tip sheets and we pilot them out in the community. So, we really got some great feedback on them, and that’s how that was created.

Maggie Potapchuk (11:20):

And we realized, though, to deepen and make sure that evaluation racial equity were in the same sentence, we had to deepen the knowledge and skills around racial equity. So, we actually set it up as a companion site. That’s how we named it back in 2009.

Maggie Potapchuk (11:37):

And so, that’s how that started. And Sally had met Shakti Butler (and again, I’m going to put names in here) at Pat Harbour’s Healing the Heart of Diversity, which folks may know.

Maggie Potapchuk (11:51):

And I met Shakti in 2001 when we were both in a delegation for Project Change, which I mentioned earlier, to participate in The World Conference Against Racism and Xenophobia. So, those are forever connections and folks may know Shakti Butler as a filmmaker.

Maggie Potapchuk (12:10):

Well, we started meeting regularly in 2012 to begin working on the transforming white privilege curriculum. And then we discussed merging evaluation tools, Racial Equity Tools, and Shakti had a site called Racial Equity Learning.

Maggie Potapchuk (12:26):

And so, we merged all those sites together in 2016. And then we did our final upgrade move the platform in 2020, which reflects where it is today.

Kerrien Suarez (12:38):

Thank you for sharing that. And we met shortly after that initial merger of the three sites just after 2016. So, it was interesting as you tell the story to think back on like when we met in the story you were telling then and over the years about how the site was evolving. Thank you.

Kerrien Suarez (12:59):

So, you’ve talked about how RET came to be and the folks that were involved in getting it started. Can you talk a little bit about the transition that happened at the beginning of this year when Equity In The Center adopted Racial Equity Tools, sort of how that came to be, why you thought Equity In The Center was the right home for RET to help move it forward into its next chapter.

Kerrien Suarez (13:26):

And if you want to share a bit about why that transition was important and how you think that RET users will benefit from it moving forward.

Maggie Potapchuk (13:37):

So, the RET partners had discussed always eventually having the RET site adopted by an organization that we felt could honor the principles of RET, who could manage the curation of the resources in terms of expertise and analysis.

Maggie Potapchuk (13:53):

And Equity In The Center, just your ethos reflected our hope of what we wanted to hold Racial Equity Tools. A young, vibrant, multiracial organization who not only had the necessary expertise, but also, just the passion of resources.

Maggie Potapchuk (14:12):

I mean, I felt like at that first meeting, Kay, it just was in your DNA in terms of how Equity Center was just being formed. Like just being able to share. And so, we wanted to make sure that it was really going for that Equity In The Center could support where it needs to go to really meet the needs.

Maggie Potapchuk (14:33):

I think what’s important in terms of the tools, and the research, and the tips, and curricula that are on the site is — I think one of the areas that has received minimum investment by the philanthropic sector is creating a communication infrastructure and consistent support for capacity building network.

Maggie Potapchuk (14:55):

And RET offers one of the few avenues for individuals and organizations across the US and really beyond to learn about the work that’s going on in communities.

Maggie Potapchuk (15:06):

I think so many times we’re coastal privileged and we don’t always think about how we’re connecting the dots in between and how we’re really lifting each other up. And I think this is so critical, especially now, with the different attacks that are happening and to figure out how we can be proactive and strategic.

Maggie Potapchuk (15:26):

So, I think as we talk about fighting for democracy, it’s imperative that we have a strong communication loop and clearinghouse.

Maggie Potapchuk (15:36):

And I think Equity In The Center is positioned to really take RET into the next chapter and really make sure that we’re responding to the users and we’re also, taking time to make sure that we’re living our principles in terms of accessibility and language justice. And that we have the content that’s needed to really support the movement. And so, that’s a little bit about it.

Kerrien Suarez (16:05):

Thanks so much, Maggie. It is such an honor for you to have selected Equity In The Center to be RET’s home moving forward. So, I can’t say thank you enough for that.

Kerrien Suarez (16:16):

And Andrew and I were really shocked and honored when you let us know because we’ve always been in awe of your ability to curate all of these resources, like reviewing hundreds of emails and materials on a bimonthly basis, and then making decisions about what belongs in RET.

Kerrien Suarez (16:36):

And then your whole way of being and working with folks is such a reflection of the values that you’re talking about. And that was a big part of why it was such an honor for you to say RET could be a part of EIC moving forward.

Kerrien Suarez (16:53):

Because you’ve been a great leader in the field and also, a great mentor to Andrew and myself over time. And the values that you’ve modeled have helped to shape how we’ve shown up in this work, along with other members of our board who have also mentored and supported us over time.

Kerrien Suarez (17:12):

But I just wanted to thank you and honor you because who you are has been embedded in a way in Equity In The Center because we built a relationship and you really modeled the values that you’re talking about for each of us who’s a part of the team. So, thank you.

Kerrien Suarez (17:29):

And we continue to be in awe of the magnitude of work that you do, and we’re in the process of figuring out how to bring all of that into Equity In The Center and learn from you as much as we can.

Kerrien Suarez (17:40):

Even though we can’t clone you and I do want to … the name for folks that what you do is very singular. And we’re doing the best that we can, and we’re excited to figure out how to honor your legacy and carry the work forward.

Kerrien Suarez (17:59):

Let’s see. You mentioned philanthropy, one of our favorite topics. So, you along with your founding colleagues created this expansive library of tools and tips and materials for individuals, communities, and organizations to utilize.

Kerrien Suarez (18:15):

And one critical aspect of RET is that the resources are all free and easily accessible to folks. And you put a lot of time and labor along with your colleagues into curating and maintaining the library.

Kerrien Suarez (18:30):

And one thing that philanthropy hasn’t historically done is underwrite or invest in this kind of work, so capacity building and curation.

Kerrien Suarez (18:39):

Philanthropy has invested in the dissemination of tools and resources often that it has created. But what you’re doing is sort of pulling from multiple networks and creating something that’s free and accessible to all.

Kerrien Suarez (18:53):

So, could you talk a little bit about the importance of that free resource and the necessity of philanthropy to capitalize it at this particular moment in time?

Maggie Potapchuk (19:05):

Yeah. First, I guess I want to start, we have to celebrate the ground that we’ve covered just in the last 15 years as we celebrate this anniversary because we know that that’s what the conservative forces are reacting to is our progress.

Maggie Potapchuk (19:25):

I think it’s also, important to put into context from a movement standpoint, like using the term structural racism, racism, white privilege. Before and continues, but the 15 years, there was internal pressure within organizations not to use it.

Maggie Potapchuk (19:42):

And you can even track in professional association conferences to see when it got brought into it. And I think that that’s an interesting tracking.

Maggie Potapchuk (19:50):

I remember when we launched Transforming White Privilege curriculum in 2014, we’re like, do you really have to call it that? We can’t buy it, white privilege in the name.

Maggie Potapchuk (20:01):

And so, but now, we’re at this moment that we’re getting external pressure and legislation to dilute, to stop using those terms of cheering, as well as funders are stopping the funding for people to use those terms that are focused on race. And for those who are speaking out for a humanitarian response to stop the war in Gaza and the genocide that’s happening.

Maggie Potapchuk (20:25):

I think it’s important to note, and I think philanthropy needs to understand this a little bit, is as much as I’m excited about those 15 years of progress, we’re also, starting to see the gaps, the holes in the walls.

Maggie Potapchuk (20:39):

Because nonprofit and foundations that were doing that internal work over the years are being silent, are being in protective mode. They are not using their strength together collectively to use their voice to say, “No, this is our point of no return.”

Maggie Potapchuk (20:58):

And in my recent publication, one of the questions that I asked is, what’s the political force or the spiritual quagmire that needs to occur for nonprofits and philanthropy to make this deep and sustained commitment? And so, for philanthropy, the time is now. And to use the power that they have.

Maggie Potapchuk (21:20):

I would say one of the things that I’ve pondered a little bit when we talk about funding is being involved in supporting two national networks to support racial equity and justice, we had limited warning on when each of the funding stopped for both of those networks.

Maggie Potapchuk (21:40):

And where would we have been if those networks were in place and being able to have the communication tools necessary. And you’re right, RET had limited support over the years only for upgrades.

Maggie Potapchuk (21:55):

And so, at this time, it’s critical for Equity In The Center to be supported to build the bench, so you can’t be more responsive to the requests in the field. And also, we operated on a shoestring budget to pay the tech bills.

Maggie Potapchuk (22:12):

So, in supporting Equity In The Center, you can ensure that this is an important clearing clearinghouse that can really evolve with the movement. And I think Equity In The Center is going to take it in a place that is really needed and is responsive. And I know we’re going to be doing that with a new page.

Kerrien Suarez (22:34):

Yes. It is important to invest in Equity In The Center, and in RET, and in all the organizations that are doing movement building.

Kerrien Suarez (22:43):

You named so pointedly the challenge of this moment because we have the challenge of the shifting equity and DEI landscape, which is of course tied to the SCOTUS ruling on Roe v Wade as well.

Kerrien Suarez (22:56):

So, like the domestic context and then the international context in terms of what’s happening in Israel and with Gaza.

Kerrien Suarez (23:04):

And I think folks who are like me, so leaders of nonprofits feel between a rock and a hard place. And I’ve had a lot of conversations with folks about their choice to remain silent.

Kerrien Suarez (23:15):

And Equity In The Center has tried to live into our values with some of the materials that we’ve shared. And there’s a caution around being really explicit because many of our colleagues have lost funding.

Kerrien Suarez (23:28):

And so how do you hold the both and?

Kerrien Suarez (23:29):

And we’re at a point of no return because genocide has a definition and the definition was met months ago. And folks aren’t talking about that.

Kerrien Suarez (23:40):

And I don’t think folks have the skills to talk about these things. So, the way that you laid it all out and illustrated it in an accessible way, I find that colleagues have real difficulty with that.

Kerrien Suarez (23:54):

And many of the materials that are on RET are tools folks can use to help navigate this moment. And there’s still a really huge gap in terms of our human capacity to talk about what’s happening. I think individually, and then within the community, and within organizations.

Kerrien Suarez (24:14):

But there are a lot of resources on RET that people can use and folks continue to struggle because they don’t know how to name all of the hard things that we’re witnessing and observing.

Kerrien Suarez (24:29):

And folks are rolling back, as you said, investment in things that say white supremacy or structural racism. I think there are a whole lot of other words and one of them being genocide that people haven’t actually begun to say.

Kerrien Suarez (24:43):

So, the complexity of this moment is overwhelming in a way, and I appreciate how clearly you laid it all out. So, thank you for inviting us into such a deep dialogue for which there is no immediate resolution.

Kerrien Suarez (24:57):

You talked a lot about the past 15 years and how RET has evolved and also, how the broader landscape will evolve. You did speak a bit to how you hope RET will continue to evolve in partnership with Equity In The Center.

Kerrien Suarez (25:14):

Do you have a vision for what the future of RET looks like? Current landscape notwithstanding, or maybe the current landscape is the context for that vision?

Kerrien Suarez (25:26):

So, how would you talk about the future of RET or where do you hope RET is in 2, 5, 10 years in terms of contributing to the pushback against DEI? Well, supporting people through it would be a better way of saying it. But what are your hopes and dreams for RET as it moves into this next phase?

Maggie Potapchuk (25:48):

Yeah. I think it’s interesting to note that some of the organizations whose resources are on the site would not have been there 10 years ago.

Maggie Potapchuk (25:58):

When you look at their change trajectory of what has happened in these 10 years, they were still early in their racial equity change process. So, just going back to the progress that we’ve made, I think it’s important to note that.

Maggie Potapchuk (26:14):

And why we’re have over 5,000 resources right now. We just had our survey, we had 440 folks that came through. And one of the things that I’m going to continue to support the year is doing the spring cleaning. And to see if there’s resources that are data.

Maggie Potapchuk (26:37):

So, I do want to say to folks though, resources from the ’90s and the 2000 are still important to track in terms of lineage.

Maggie Potapchuk (26:46):

I know you and I talked before this about the structural racism caucus that came together in the early 2000. There was eight organizations that were trying to figure out the clarity of that definition and how to implement it.

Maggie Potapchuk (26:58):

So, I think one way that RET follows is that there might be an archival site to make sure we are not losing the information about the trajectory in terms of practice and how the change process.

Maggie Potapchuk (27:15):

And also, looking at some of the issues of how they evolved. We’re talking about reproductive justice or food justice. Those words have evolved over the last 15 years. So, how they went from race neutral to racial justice I think is important.

Maggie Potapchuk (27:32):

I think the other piece is just the technology is going to change. So, how does AI fit in here? How can we use technology to connect people, so we are not privileging coastal? What are the ways that we could connect and maybe change how the content is provided to the user?

Maggie Potapchuk (27:53):

And the RET partners, one of our old ideas that I think is also new idea is I think it might be interesting to see that folks in certain areas are actually curating those pages themselves. And what would that look like as we move further?

Maggie Potapchuk (28:16):

Because we know and we hope that the trajectory for racial justice is we’re going to keep expanding, we’re going to continue to deepen and grow.

Maggie Potapchuk (28:25):

And I don’t know if this is the place came to do … I wanted to make one comment about DEI backlash and-

Kerrien Suarez (28:38):

Oh, please do. I was going to ask you about that in follow up tied to the pushback resources. So, please.

Maggie Potapchuk (28:44):

Yeah. So, I think it’s a complex time with this backlash for folks in the field because on one hand we want to defend and address DEI backlash, and ban books and CRT, and all that.

Maggie Potapchuk (28:57):

While at the same time, racial equity, racial justice practitioners have also, been interrogating the DEI approach. Because we’ve seen that that approach is not sufficient for systemic change.

Maggie Potapchuk (29:11):

It plays a role, it’s an important contribution, but at the same time, we need to be at a place that we’re holding accountability for DEI practitioners and we’re in relationship with them in terms of that.

Maggie Potapchuk (29:27):

I don’t believe DEI strategy is going to uproot racism, but I do think it can lay the groundwork. I think it’s important to think about is when we’re seeing organizations use DEI and adopt it, and not all. I’m going to make a very general statement.

Maggie Potapchuk (29:49):

The label of DEI is sometimes used as a placeholder for change. And so, then there’s folks inside the organization who are really trying to do the structural work, the internal organizers of change.

Maggie Potapchuk (30:02):

And it’s often people of color and it’s often people with limited institutional power. And they’re waiting for senior leadership and the board to catch up and understand racism and personal investment.

Maggie Potapchuk (30:15):

And so, the DEI piece that we have to interrogate is how some of the organization has used it as a transactional, comfortable, majority centered action while the waiting happens. And in the meantime, harm continues, with inequitable policies and et cetera. And folks leave because it’s frustrating.

Maggie Potapchuk (30:40):

And I think we need to continue to ask the question is, what is the harm? Because that is continuing as we’re in this waiting gain for folks in power to really respond and be responsible for the change that’s necessary.

Kerrien Suarez (30:58):

Thank you for flagging that. And as practitioners, I feel like we talk about that harm and we help folks to navigate it and give language to it and to come up with policies and practices within the boundaries of, as you described, whatever the organization’s leadership is authorizing and permitting.

Kerrien Suarez (31:19):

Because there is so much that can’t happen with equity work unless it has been funded, authorized, blessed, socialized. We spend a lot of time I think, talking about that. But to your point, I don’t think there’s broader awareness of it.

Kerrien Suarez (31:37):

And I think on the part of leadership, they don’t see what’s happening as harm. And often the knee-jerk response is, well, you should be grateful that we’re doing whatever it is that we’re doing. Which just reflects, as you said, where they are and how far they haven’t come on this topic.

Kerrien Suarez (31:55):

Though, in the last 15 years, as you’re saying, there has been change and harm continues. So, how do organizations push through that and transform. And Equity In The Center is trying to talk more about shifting from that transactional DEI approach to transformational race equity.

Kerrien Suarez (32:12):

So, a couple of questions for you as we also talk about your work beyond RET. So, if a leader or a member of an organizational team is looking to move beyond that transactional DEI approach, where would you recommend that they begin on RET?

Kerrien Suarez (32:30):

And then how can they connect with you and find your broader work such as the webinar series the cohort program that you’re leading under a different banner? Sort of how can they connect with you to access those resources and where should they start?

Maggie Potapchuk (32:46):

Yeah. I mean, one of the places that I typically ask an organization to do prior to really ask for me and the folks that I work with to come into an organization is I ask them to go to the organizational change page that’s in the planning section. And we have lots of case studies there.

Maggie Potapchuk (33:10):

I find it helpful for people to read the case studies and to be able to see … because I think sometimes folks like, “I want an assessment. I want some training. I want to look at policies.” And there’s a scaffolding in place.

Maggie Potapchuk (33:24):

And I think it’s helpful to read other people’s stories to understand how they were layering it and what were some of the variables that they were considering within their organization.

Maggie Potapchuk (33:36):

I think the second piece that I would also ask is how do you view the spectrum of knowledge and skills within that organization? Because then I would take you up to fundamentals, into the concepts area.

Maggie Potapchuk (33:50):

And based on that spectrum, I would say, “What are some reading materials that you could put out there to your staff?” Because that helps folks sort of lay the foundation for what will be a very disruptive change process. And I think that’s critical to help folks get ready and immerse themselves in what’s coming up.

Maggie Potapchuk (34:12):

As you know, one of my recent publications is Transforming Organizations by Operationalizing Racial Justice. And it really talks about that scaffolding that I was referring to, like how do you put a internal team together? What does an organization assessment look like before, during, and after. How do we get to an action plan?

Maggie Potapchuk (34:36):

And lots of resources are in there from RET, all curated. And so, one of the things that I’m offering at this point is a five-part webinar series for external consultants who have been doing this work of operationalizing racial justice for the past 10 years or so or less.

Maggie Potapchuk (34:59):

And so, it launches next Wednesday. So, I’m super excited about that in terms of moving forward.

Maggie Potapchuk (35:08):

And I think a lot of those information that’s shared in there, if you go to the act tab of Racial Equity Tools and go into organizational change, you’ll see some of the policy information, how to change organizational practices, just even questions to ask as you begin or continue this process.

Kerrien Suarez (35:32):

Thank you. I know as part of releasing the podcast, we’re also, going to link the things that you’ve mentioned so folks can easily access them. Is there anything else you’d like to talk about that we haven’t touched upon?

Maggie Potapchuk (35:50):

I think I guess because I love to share my opinions about things.

Kerrien Suarez (35:56):

Fire away or please share, that’s a more abundant way of framing it.

Maggie Potapchuk (36:03):

I think the one piece that I would just say in terms of the organizational change process, that for me it’s evolved over the years in terms of how I do it, what I’m thinking about.

Maggie Potapchuk (36:15):

And I think one of the approaches that we’ve used is we meet people where they are, and we meet them at their comfort level. And we sometimes stay away from explicit terms and we give them bite-sized pieces of information based on their tolerance. And then we facilitate a few cognitive dissonance activities and hope that they’re ready to go.

Maggie Potapchuk (36:40):

And I guess I just want to offer folks another approach is really also, connecting with people’s values and with their vision. And just ask them, what would an organization look like and feel like if you practice rigorous humanity? What would it look like if you were operationalizing racial justice?

Maggie Potapchuk (36:58):

And so, then the connection is more connecting with similar values, building relationships, and to begin engaging the work in your co vision together in order to move the organization.

Maggie Potapchuk (37:13):

And so, that’s one of the areas that I think shifting that approach so we can move to that liberatory practice, I think is one important piece for us to consider with the organizational change.

Kerrien Suarez (37:30):

Oh, thanks for outlining that and for naming liberation as the ultimate goal because as you’ve said earlier, we want to dismantle white supremacy, we want to dismantle structural racism, and beyond that is liberation. And often so many of us feel that the intermediary steps as well as that broader vision, that it’s not possible.

Kerrien Suarez (37:50):

And folks have been able to carve out spaces within organizations and in communities where they’re able to tap into and achieve some of that liberation just by introducing new practices into the organization.

Kerrien Suarez (38:03):

One thing you said, well, you said a lot of things that were interesting, but you began with that latest of vignette or anecdote about how you work with folks who may not be ready for explicit terms, and then you laid out a process that was still values aligned.

Kerrien Suarez (38:19):

So, I wanted to come back to that because often when Equity In The Center works with organizations, or if I’m coaching someone or just talking to someone who’s a colleague or that I meet in passing, and we end up talking about DEI, folks don’t feel that holding things in the way that you described is actually possible.

Kerrien Suarez (38:40):

And generally, it’s because they don’t have the skills to do so, kind of like we were talking about before in terms of deepening capacity to say and persist and hold people through hard things.

Kerrien Suarez (38:49):

So, what do you think for those of us who are learning and growing in our practice, how do you strengthen the muscle to hold that kind of a conversation where you’re not necessarily saying white privilege or white supremacy or structural racism or whatever term it is that might make a particular organization uncomfortable, yet you’re pushing them into that conversation about collective humanity.

Kerrien Suarez (39:19):

Many people I encounter don’t know where to begin or how to do that. And I do think the lack of capacity to hold that conversation is related to what we were talking about earlier, about our broader ability to not persist through and name hard things that are happening in the world.

Kerrien Suarez (39:37):

And that’s just one thing I wonder about as a practitioner, I think we can coach folks through it. So, I have a sense of how do I do that when I’m working with someone?

Kerrien Suarez (39:44):

But just wondered from your vantage point, how would you encourage people to lean into the competencies and the skill sets that will allow them to participate in and then perhaps over time to lead those types of conversations?

Kerrien Suarez (39:58):

Where you’re talking to someone who may not be about racial justice necessarily or explicitly, but you’re able to meet them where they are in a way that is values aligned to racial equity and justice, if that makes sense.

Maggie Potapchuk (40:16):

So, a really easy question, Kay. Thank you so much for that. So, I guess two things are coming up for me when you were talking is part of the values aligned is just really connecting with folks, just people creating a relationship with each other.

Maggie Potapchuk (40:36):

And some of the places that we’ve gone, we had this activity in transforming white privilege about accumulated advantages and disadvantages. And it started out with some questions about your family.

Maggie Potapchuk (40:48):

Like what did you learn about your family about work? What was taught? What were the messages in your family about money, about housing? Did you always have stable housing? Not asking directly like that, but getting into a conversation.

Maggie Potapchuk (41:09):

Because in some ways, by knowing that family history of, and I’m specifically talking to more about white folks, by folks naming some of those troubles that they had.

Maggie Potapchuk (41:22):

So, some of the challenges, whether it was about housing or financial, and then to widen their perspective of that, what’s the impact when then we look at some of the racial disparities? And then what’s the impact as we look at that trajectory?

Maggie Potapchuk (41:37):

But one, you’re making that relationship connection, you’re finding out your entry points from their family standpoint, and then you’re being able to help them connect the dots or just share a headline.

Maggie Potapchuk (41:51):

It’s not like you’re doing a racism 101, but it’s beginning to share a headline where they might pause and say, “Oh, really, I didn’t know about black maternal health and what was going on and what was the impact of what was going on with the racial disparities.” So, those are some of the ways.

Maggie Potapchuk (42:11):

I think the other piece that has been recent for me in the last decade or so, (and a few people influenced me to do this) is I really need to center love and really think about, as I think of other people’s humanity, how do I need to think about their support and what would it be for them to be in relationship with me working together for justice?

Maggie Potapchuk (42:43):

And so, I need to enter in with centering love and not putting out a scenario or forecasting a scenario of how I think they will react. And more being present with that in mind, with that value in mind.

Maggie Potapchuk (43:01):

And that’s helped me to pause many times when sometimes I get frustrated, my anger goes up, I really want to say something difficult, and I pause and I try and remember that.

Maggie Potapchuk (43:14):

Because we’re in this for the long term, nothing’s going to be solved on the short term or about racism. So, we need to figure out our strategy in order to do that.

Kerrien Suarez (43:23):

Oh, thank you for sharing that. That’s powerful. And philanthropy is love of humanity, even though it doesn’t always feel like that in terms of how philanthropy is structured and the outcomes that it does or does not invest in for communities or for particular communities.

Kerrien Suarez (43:43):

I understand what you mean about centering love, and that is something that I’ve learned over time. Like I’ve heard colleagues when I spent time in education and Carmita Semaan of Surge Institute in particular talking about cultivating leaders in organizations that love our babies or love black children.

Kerrien Suarez (44:00):

And I think that that was my entry point to thinking about what you’re describing because the love is universal and contextual in some cases. And so, how you enter that dialogue with individuals or organizations is necessarily different each time.

Kerrien Suarez (44:21):

But underlying it is still love of humanity, but it may be about children, it may be about elders but there’s a way to access that for all the folks that you’re working with.

Kerrien Suarez (44:32):

And I think sometimes the getting to know you and the relationship building that you’re talking about can, at least for me as a practitioner, is learning that person and their individual history.

Kerrien Suarez (44:42):

Because that path to the broader perspective and openness to people who are different or not from ourselves, begins with the cycle of socialization, which starts as you described earlier at home. So, who are your people and how do you connect to them?

Kerrien Suarez (45:00):

And so, that love can be accessed in a variety of ways, but I found that centering people in their lineage, and their story, and their understanding of the world that that’s how you tap into what they believe themselves to deserve, their children to deserve.

Kerrien Suarez (45:18):

And extending that love beyond this small circle of people that they’ve been socialized to believe only deserve it.

Maggie Potapchuk (45:25):

Beautifully said.

Kerrien Suarez (45:27):

Oh, thank you for sharing that. Anything else we didn’t cover?

Maggie Potapchuk (45:31):

No, I had fun just hanging out with you for a little bit. It’s precious time.

Kerrien Suarez (45:37):

Yes, this was fun. Thank you so much. It’s always such a pleasure and a blessing to spend time with you, Maggie. I’ve learned so much from you over the years. So, thank you.